One of my favorite books is called "Beyond Oil", it, among other things, discusses the energy profit ratio of different fuel sources. As you have pointed out we pay for oil out of several different pockets.If you add up all these costs, oil does not net us as much usable energy as it initially did. When oil was first being developed every one unit of energy spent to extract and refine the oil yeilded about 60 units of useable energy, it is now down to 1:20 (and less if you include military and enviromental costs). The same ratios are roughly the same for coal. Wind and solar (both PV and thermal) have an energy ratio of 1:25 and even the most avid nuclear proponents come up with a 1:7 ratio. A prior posting has noted it is important to view our energy usage not in terms of dollars but rather energy in versus energy out, looking at it from this perspective makes renewables the obvious choice.

Posted by Steve Krug @ 10/22/2002 07:58 PM EST

Dedicated to freedom from FossilFuels:
Did you know that some home-based inventors have created anit-gravity devices capable of propelling an object through the air? This is not science fiction; it is science fact! If a basement inventor can do this, imagine what NASA has been working on...Makes me wonder about all those UFOs out there, the ones with all the clever lights, bells and whistles.
Check out an article from Jane's Defence Weekly called "Air Power Electric" - wriiten by Nick Cook
www.forceborne.com/AirPowerElectric
Where do We go from here?...

Posted by White Crow @ 10/23/2002 11:42 AM EST

Re: Your post on the readiness of solar and wind, and your response to K. Davies.
While I find your language deplorable, it may be that you have an audience that would not otherwise be reached and the message is one we need to get to all possible audiences. Davies is wrong about solar energy payback, but you are equally wrong about readiness and timing. The oil guys would shred you in an exchange because you have not quantified the task, and they would get away with disinformation for the same reason.
The USA uses about 100 quads of primary energy per year, a lot of which is wasted in conversion to electricity. If we could start with primary electricity (wind, solar, hydro, wave etc) we could support the present economy on about 50 quads. To generate 15 quads from wind would require about 500,000 3MW wind turbines, which would require construction and installation of 30,000/yr for 20 years. World manufacturing capacity today is less than 1/5th of that. To generate 10 quads of solar, using 200 sun concentrators would require 20 square miles of silicon or the output of 5 very large factories for 20 years. All of the capacity in the USA today is less than one of those large factories.
Wind and solar are both intermittent, requiring means of energy storage that we don't have today, even if the technology exists. Getting solar electricity from the big fields in the southwest to the rest of the country requires development of an infrastructure that we don't have today either.
For sure the money and the energy we will waste on a war with Iraq would give us the needed capacity, but there is no way to get the job done in less than several decades.
Your basic idea is right on, and we need to start now so we will have the capacity in future decades, but we are going to need a lot of oil in the meantime. I applaud your sense of urgency, aND i HOPE YOU HAVE AN AUDIENCE, but you have to work on your analyses if you don't want to get torn apart by the guys on the other side of the argument. Given your reaction to criticism its better you should be well prepared.

Posted by Duff @ 10/23/2002 12:04 PM EST

EXCERPT FROM ORIGINAL ARTICLE
Support For Bush's Iraq
War Begins To Wane Across US
By Bill Redeker
ABCNEWS.com
10-15-2

"America speaks with one voice," says President Bush. In Washington, Bush, having been empowered by both houses of Congress to use force, seems to face very little opposition on Iraq.
Just a few comments on the article referenced above where Bush states "We all speak as one." I believe it is only his "rubber stamp" congress and house (no difference in any of them) that parrots his babble, in collusion with corporate interest, those who will gain financially from “easy oil,” certainly not this citizen. Not to mention the arms dealers who manufacture everything from bullets to fighters and bombers. I too, agree with the masses who cannot see an argument for this aggression toward Iraq, at least not until this great "super power" in the mid east does something to us. I believe any sane person who is contemplating sending thousands of our young men and women to be killed and wounded should have a firmer and more convincing excuse than just ‘personal family revenge,” and the acquisition of oil for the corporate glut. It would be like shooting a bunch of crippled ducks from thirty-five thousand feet overhead and then sitting comfortably in our debriefing rooms many miles away and claiming bragging rights. I have served my country, have and will support her when she is in the right, but who made America the world's baby sitter anyway? Will there ever be a time when people can live in peace and freedom, and economies can grow, without sacrificial killing, the act called “war?” Does life really have to be sustained on a “guns and butter” economy? Does mankind never tire of heartbreak, tears and broken lives? Who would fight the politician’s wars if we all just said, “hell no, no more!” A rarity in the history of mortal man would occur; it would be called “peace” what a novel and wonderful thought. There is a line in a recent movie I believe we should ascribe to which goes, "I never trouble, trouble, until trouble troubles me."
I am puzzled today by many unfolding events, such as, we are eager to wage war on the “evil” Iraq, yet we cower before North Korea, who in my opinion is a much more aggressive and dangerous threat to world peace and security. Could it be that North Korea has no major oil supplies? Does anyone remember China? China came to the aid of North Korea once before, as well as North Viet Nam, could we possibly get our butts in a sling in NK? China crouches and lies in wait patiently, like a silent tiger, waiting for the prey (America) to be substantially weakened before making a deadly kill. Could the sands of the mid eastern dessert be her killing fields of the near future? Asia needs oil too. Oh, but China is our friend now! Yeah, right! Just how thin can our forces be spread around the globe and still defend our interest?
I am puzzled by the fact that our own elected leaders resist any and all inquiries into the WTC disaster, and that we citizens have no right to know the details. I am puzzled that a country that can read the print of a dime from hundreds of miles up in space, a country with all the leading edge technology in forensics and criminal investigation, a country with a military with unbelievable war toys can’t locate and apprehend a killer of citizens in and around Washington DC. I’m puzzled the “terrorist acts” appear to occur at the most convenient of political times, and that each event is used to further the implemptation of constraints on liberties and freedoms for ordinary citizens here at home.
Gee, I've never seen a man who could be in as many places in the world at one time as Bin Lauden, this man is faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, you know the rest. If a wreck occurs on the interstate, it's Bin Lauden's fault. This man may be a US trained and paid for devil, but please, give me a break, one man, alone, cannot create this much havoc without government help, or turning a blind eye. The US went in and stopped Hitler and we can't stop Bin Lauden? What gives? The US has the power at its command to obliterate any country on earth that attacks us, why should we assume the "bully's" roll?
The one thing disliked most in our school systems when we were growing up were the bully's, now this bully mentality seems to have evolved to and permeates the highest echelons of our government. America has all the attributes (when she utilizes them) to be a light and an example of freedom and goodwill to the world, where did we lose it? We should remember (and it rarely fails) what goes around comes around. Governments are not immune. If we're going to wage war, let's wage war on a crippled economy and a morally bankrupt society right here in our own back yard. There is plenty of time for Americans to teach the people of Islam how to drink booze, kill their babies, turn a nation into homosexuals, destroy any vestige of morals in their youth, destroy their churches until they are of little or no effect, corrupt their political systems. Yes, we can take our western values to the mid east anytime; let’s take care of the homeland first. God knows America has enough internal problems to keep us busy for years to come.

Like millions of American's across this country, my wife and I are in our retirement years, and have in the past several months lost a substantial amount of retirement money that we could ill afford to lose, while the "big boys" still live in the lap of luxury and walk free, having committed major crimes against the people. Many American's will soon be faced with having to forego prescribed medications due to the ever-rising cost of this manipulated scam racket. Health insurance that we thought we had earned from a major company I was employed with, which gave us some degree of peace of mind for our final years will soon be out of my reach financially because the cost of maintaining those benefits are costing the companies more than they can afford. Consequently, the cost is being passed on to the retirees who are on a fixed income and definitely can't afford it, yet our great leaders are prepared to spend over Two hundred billion dollars plus, to blow up some dessert sand and take some oil fields, and then billions more to lay claim to and control those oil fields, post war. In past years I have read of people who were forced by financial need to eat dog food and cat food right here in the good old United States, to me that is deplorable, absolutely uncalled for in a land as rich as ours, I certainly do not look forward to that. No kid, I mean NO kid, should ever go to bed hungry in this country, or go without proper medical and dental care, especially while those from outside of our borders get the full treatment, tax free. If a child has been proven to be abused for a lack of food, clothing, or proper medical treatment while we spend billions on war games, someone in government should go to jail for child abuse. Same with the elderly who can no longer help themselves and continue to be bled to death through taxation, even into old age. I’ve heard of couples having to divorce to keep from being penalized on what meager earnings they receive from social security, what a sham and a shame! Not one soul in America should do without life's basic and essential needs when millions, even billions are spent on fun and games, such as multi billion dollar sports arenas for a bunch of spoiled children to play in and a place for the wealthy to spend their afternoons relaxing and laughing at the millions of people who have to support these Roman gods through their taxes and most never are able to afford to step into one of these sports palaces. It's called getting our priorities straight.

Obviously I could go on and on in making "my case for no war," so, until I see monies going to the elderly and the children, and the truly needy (not the dead beats) of this nation, my attitude is, "to hell with Bush and his cronies and their oil war." If Saddam Hussein (or however you spell the idiots name) makes an overt criminal move on the USA, then blow him away, don't just go in and murder thousands of civilians who don't want the politicians war anymore than most Americans, or others around the world. Politicians and corporations still start wars; citizens who only want to live and pursue their liberties and happiness still die in them. It's time to "JUST SAY NO!" When the smoke clears and the bombs stop falling, and all involved have stored their little high tech war toys, what has ultimately been gained? Lost sons and daughters, crippled and maimed bodies for the rest of their lives, cancer and other war induced killing agents present in the blood of survivors. Yet a few years down the road, things only get worse right at home. The very things we thought we were fighting to protect, we find are now being taken from us by the stroke of a political pen by our own government in the name of Orwellian national security (police state), not a bomb or a gun. The writer of Leviticus was correct; vanity of vanities all is vanity.

We should remember that disaster is more easily stopped at the beginning of its movement; momentum is almost always a predictable force. Where is America's momentum taking us? I personally don't even like to think about what I see coming.
I realize this is lengthy, but I simply needed an outlet for some major concerns as a citizen and patriot of this nation. Thanks for at least reading my concerns.

Jerry L. Gardner

Posted by Jerry L. Gardner @ 10/23/2002 05:44 PM EST

there is a site,

http://dieoff.org/

which IMHO has content appropriate to this discussion. it will probably appear of interest to some of you, it should appear informative to most of you.

Posted by bonko @ 10/24/2002 08:26 AM EST

Re: Wind and solar...we have been involved in renewable energy research for several years, after working on wind turbines in Tehachapi and Minnesota. GE Wind, which bought Endrun's wind division has projected a 20% annual growth in manufacturing, which we have right here in Tehachapi. We have been offered wind turbine generators, to donate to schools, and for every ten wind mills that are dismantled, the producers can put up one new generator. We invite any one who has an interest, to contact any wind energy producer, and find out what a 65kw turbine would provide for a small farm or ranch; with or without the pay off from the utilities. We at Ruach Alternatives of Tehachapi, cA/US have no commercial interest in wind power; we feel that the fact that the de-commissioned generators are sitting on the ground at local wind farms, is an opportunity for any shop teacher to request a grant from local counties to start a wind turbine mechanics class in their local high school and colleges. With cooperation from public and private activists, some with financial interest, we saw laws in Los Angeles county changed to allow home owners to put up wind turbines in their yards.

By the way, when our local wind industry collapsed, resulting in layoffs, and the hiring of temps, I found work in the oil fields near Taft. We are happy to report that even the oil field executives where I am working are looking for the exit signs, and even they are for sale! We are witnessing a meltdown in the oil and gas industry, and we believe that much of it is due to overproducing, and the ease of extracting oil and gas and directional drilling. The one thing the industry cannot survive is abundance; they survive by creating shortages. We are seeing larger deposits of fields and more widespread use of horizontal drilling creating great profits for the brokers and suppliers, with the threatened bankruptcy of the producers. We suspect that the oversupply caused the collapse of End Run, because they could not capitalize on a market that they were so far in debt trying to corner. We are predicting that the money pit is going to be filled by the money lenders, as we continue to create better ways of providing the basics, with or without government involvement. In 1985, it was reported that the gobierno of Mexico City was AWOL for four days during the earthquakes (which we now believe can be traced to offshore drilling), as the employees of each level of local, state and federales looked after the welfare of their own families. The externet is creating a global earthquake, as average people are connecting with truth tellers around the corner or across the world; we hope that people will continue to share the best they have, and let the bureauc rats swim or bail water.

Posted by Vincent Beazel @ 10/26/2002 11:09 PM EST

Vox,
Firstly, All Life and ALL cilizations are totally reliant on energy, no energy means no life and definitely no civilization. Our civilization is totally reliant on huge amounts of energy to do the stuff we no longer actually do ourselves, take the energy out of the equation and our civilization is history. It matters not whether you understand this, it matters not that 99% of the worlds population understands this, ignorance of the facts does not remove their validity.

You mean the energy it takes to construct and operate hundreds of thousands of jet skis slammimng into manatees. You mean the energy it takes to build hundreds of thousands of SUV's that regularly slam into and go flipping through our communities. You mean the energy to send hundreds of thousands of American boys to fight and die against hundreds of thousands of Iraqi boys who also fight and die for some old man's cause, they don't give a shit about. It's called force. I live in the East Village of New York. I don't operate massive SUV's to move my body around. My computer doesn't use a fraction of of what a jet ski uses to drive literally round and round in circles. And It uses even less energy than the sweatshop sewing machine operated by some Chinese child who makes the wet suit so that I may be in exact color coordination with my Jet ski - My machine. You see, I am saying that EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG! EVERYTHING! The whole structure of your definations of civilizations is entirely the issue here. Don't frame the concept of civilization in terms of the necessity for dependence on petrochemicals. Much finer examples of "Civilization" existed a looong time before they started pumping that black shit out of the ground. Remember, Chester, we used to have leaders like Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, George Washington. Now we have fucking scumbags like Bush and Cheney. Your whole mentality is based on FRAUD.

Enron is of absolutely zero consequence, it was/is a product of the monetary system, this monetary system has no connection to the actual stuff we need to live (food, water, shelter and hunans) The demise of this along with the rest of the monetary system is completely inevitable, just think for a moment (use your head, you have shown capable of doing so in the past), the monetary system must have contiuous growth to survive, the planet is spherical in nature thus absolutely finite, continuous grownt on a finite planet is impossible. It is called overshoot then dieoff.
Somebody mentioned the dieoff site, it would be a good place for you to start.

Just what in the hell is your point? I have no idea what thesis of mine you are addressing with that last comment. I am precisely saying that oil is dying out and that that capitalism ravages populations and turns them into good sneaker and baseball cap wearers. And that's it.

All your talk of twin towers,Sadman Husseins, military budgets and antrax are just part of the inevitable conflict as we try to control a dwindling resource pie. Understand the real pressure that is driving the bushies etc to do what they are so obviously doing, they have to control the resources to continue the myth of contiuous growth. I am aware of the paradigm, I'm saying - SHIFT THE PARADIGM !
It's just that you and people like Bush do not have the power, skills and vision to see beyond your cynical approach to life. You're saying essentially, "We HAVE to go around slaughtering all of humankind, to get the dwindling enery. Whatr a fucking asshole mentality. You're an idiot and that is plain for everyone to see from your comments. Congradulations - YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. AS SOON AS YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU LEAVE THIS PLANET THEN WE CAN BRETHE A SIGH OF RELIEF and probably a breath of fresh air as well.

Money is in the end of absolutely no consequence, it is the biggest myth/conjob of human history, we are watching the change from money to food as the real staff of life.
Billions will die.
It is inevitable.

It's a wonderful vision you have, Chester. "Billions will die. Well letshope it starts with, Bush, Cheny, You and the rest of the completely brainwashed "smallthinkers."

Chester.

Posted by Chester Walls @ 10/28/2002 06:58 PM EST