Viewer Commentary: 121 comments

What the fuck is going on! I'm getting tired of all this. I tell you one thing, there will certainly be revenge against Bush and his group for all this. There will be a time when he is not president - he'll get his. As for the American people for accepting all this - well they deserve everything that they are going to get.

Posted by Liberator @ 10/25/2002 05:02 PM EST

I find it incredulous that the media said absolutely nothing about the possibility that this plane was destroyed by a bomb or missile to MURDER the one Senator that has spoken stridently for truth. They NEVER stated the obvious that the only one who gains from his death is Bush and his republican cronies and the corporate monsters of wall street... funny and tragic that the stock market rallied upon hearing of his death... If that doesn't want to make you pull out of this stock market, NOTHING on this earth will ever do so... I AM ASHAMED TO BE AN AMERICA - for it is no longer free... IT IS A MONARCHY OF TERROR AND EVIL...

Posted by Truth Seeker @ 10/25/2002 05:43 PM EST

Right on. The American juggernaut is a very evil and dark force, it will be interesting to see who will challenge it... The Chinese maybe???

Posted by Francis Roebling @ 10/25/2002 07:47 PM EST

Check out Halliburton.com Interesting. I post at the Freemasonry Watch discussion room. 11 days before the election we lose a great man. Bush offers his sympathy while at the same time appoints former CIA chief Webster to the SEC accounting oversight board. How illuminating, the only word that comes to mind is TREASON!

Posted by North Wind @ 10/25/2002 08:22 PM EST

Let's see Carnahan died same week two years ago. Same M.O. Plane crash before the election. Ashcroft still got beaten by a dead man, the voters elected Mel carnahan's wife in a vow of defiance against that Religious Fanatic Ashcroft.

Posted by Come on People... @ 10/25/2002 09:17 PM EST

Would someone PLEASE start shooting back in defense of our Constitution and Republic? Why the FUCK do we take this crap sitting down???

Posted by Small "r" republican @ 10/25/2002 09:57 PM EST

Vox, I just did a Google search with the terms "Wellstone" and "assassination." Results:

Bomb Discovered in Colombia before visit of U.S. Senator, Ambassador: http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/12/01/colombia.wellstone.03/

Apparently there was a bombing attempt against Wellstone during his visit to Columbia in 2000. When that failed, there was a lethal spraying attempt:

http://www.americas.org/news/nir/20001210_herbicide_douses_u_s_senator.asp

Hope I copied those links correctly. If not, do it yourself . . . and draw your own conclusions!

Here's another link the search turned up, one with some interesting background. A partial quote:

"Who would have guessed that the hopes of both major parties in the midterm elections would hinge on one man: Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota? Wellstone, who is generally viewed by the Washington establishment as an outré 60s-radical type, is in the race of his life for reelection this fall. The most liberal member of the Senate, where the Democrats hold a one-seat majority, is in a neck-and-neck contest with President Bush's hand-picked candidate, Norm Coleman, the party-switching former mayor of St. Paul. Bush and Vice President Cheney intervened to make sure Coleman would not face a primary challenge, and they are now aggressively campaigning to help Coleman push Wellstone out . . ."

link: http://www.progressive.org/webex/wxrc052402.html

But why is it always, in the end, a plane crash? Someone ought to do a book on all these plane crashes that SO conveniently result in the untimely demise of the inconvenient.

To any US servicemen or -women reading this post, OBSERVE YOUR OATH! Defend our Constitution against all enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC! You've got the guns and you know what to do with them. HONOR YOUR OATH!

Posted by Small "d" democrat @ 10/25/2002 10:52 PM EST

Why was Sen. Paul Wellstone called
a "radical Liberal"? Why is it a
"bad" thing to vote with one's
conscience and to stand by one's
principles? Hooray for Sen. Paul
Wellstone for being the one voice
to say "No" to the Iraq Resolution.
Now, more than ever,we owe it to ourselves to defend OUR Constitution. This is serious and
this is real.

Posted by dShays (as in Shays Rebellion) @ 10/26/2002 12:22 AM EST

It is incredible... Just Incredible... It's a very bad time to be American. I will move to Europe untill there is some sanity here - if ever. I never thought I could leave America, but there is just less and less each day that compels me to stay. The people here are getting uglier and meaner each day and the brutishness and thugishness in the streets is just not the America I remember.
This place is starting to look like crowds of skinheads, like Nazi's. Believe it or not, this hair style does have allusions to and pertainant semiotics relating to a FASCIST mentality.
Bye Bye folks
I'm going to free my soul...
...and get the fuck outta this shithole.

Posted by Laura DeAngelo @ 10/26/2002 02:32 AM EST

To not recognize that the conspiracies occur in the spirit world is to be part of the problem. Satan uses any tool available. The government is only one of his tools. Did the government decided to terrorize society with a sniper before the elections? Satan sure did, because he wants conservatives in power.

Posted by Gary Novak @ 10/26/2002 02:39 AM EST

I remember the prediction you made a long time ago. It struck me then and I am absolutely floored reading it again. Your prescience is second to none, vox. I am about to explode, here. If you can predict these things one and a half years before they happen why the hell don't the major newspapers start taking note of your work?

Posted by Dawn Hanse @ 10/26/2002 06:43 AM EST

Knew I'd find the truth here--thanks, vox, for speaking for me as I have no one to talk to and am banned from speaking at work--get the odd comment in here and there and watch eyes literally glaze over and their turning and walking away w/o a word--media-brainwashed robots. Still hoping that madmen will misjudge and will try to pull something off that will backfire and wake up zomboids. My heart is heavy over this blatant murder of a good man and those w/him.
Keep on writing the truth,vox.
Peace, Kathleen

Posted by kathleen beatty @ 10/26/2002 09:49 AM EST

I was watching the C(IA)NN, when they announced that Mr. Wellstone's plane went down. My husband and I both thought immediately "THEY killed him." I'm elated to know that there are so many people out there who can recognize the true reality of what's going on around us. Thanks vox, not only for your amazingly well-articulated views but your courage to post them.

Posted by Amanda Garrison @ 10/26/2002 10:04 AM EST

Do not go to the Twin Cities local paper startribune.com and suggest that the crash was anything more than an accident - they will reprimand you like a kindergartener.

They want to play the delusional zombies that they are.

Thanks for having a forum where people can say what they feel.

Cass

Posted by Cass Arolin @ 10/26/2002 11:26 AM EST

I'm not American, but I've been phoning and emailing US reps to add my voice to the anti-war movement. It's going to get ugly for you people, but understand that the world does not hate Americans, only the Bu(ll)sh(it) regime. Your founding fathers did it, you can too. REJECT Coleman.
Godd luck, I'll be here to do whatever I can.

Oct. 3, WSWS.org "The statements of presidential spokesperson Ari Fleischer at the White House Tuesday should have clarified any such misconceptions. Speaking from a podium bearing the presidential seal, Fleischer publicly advocated political assassination as a means of realizing US foreign policy."

Posted by Brio @ 10/26/2002 11:39 AM EST

I was working on my friends house when the phone rang. He was on the other end. "They killed Wellstone" were his first words. My friend is a former host of a long defunct WBAI dissident talk radio show that was on late night in the 80's. He was relieved of his duties for telling the truth. We are now middle aged and sadly jaded. The truth is this cabal will stop at nothing to gain everything. No amount of demonstrating, protesting or any other action will do anything to halt this. Tom Delay isnt going to die in "plane crash". This is one party rule. get used to it

Posted by firechannel @ 10/26/2002 12:07 PM EST

i talked to a first responder and he said that he couldn't talk about what he found, but there was something at the scene that supposedly makes it obvious what really happened. i'll try to find out what it is and keep y'all posted.(maybe i'll put him in my basement and give him lsd until he spills his guts) Coleman has a team of bloody killers behind him and running us foreign policy. to future politicians: dont let this murder dissuade you from speaking the truth. and i'll echo a previous comment to our armed serviceman: OBSERVE YOUR OATH protect our constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. you have the guns and know what to do with them.

just say NO to coleman

Posted by d. low @ 10/26/2002 01:38 PM EST

Anyone here, and I'm assuming most are at least grasping the concept, of world geopolitics, should not be surprised. I'd keep a close eye on Coleman, Vox. I'd also look into his connections, political, corporate, etc.
Anyone else interested in researching our 'leaders', specifically, dirt and deeds, should do a search for the Fifth Column text. It's extremely useful for ideas if you are just starting out on this path, even if you aren't a 'hacker'.

Posted by F3R4L @ 10/26/2002 03:22 PM EST

Hi folks Im radar from Scotland,I,d like to pass on my respects to the surving members of this family. I also agree with all the posts on this issue except for a couple of short sighted comments posted from the obvious,first heard of this 26/10/02 0500hrs on 5 live in UK and they did mention that this senator did go against popular opinium or words to that effect but said with no conspiracy undertones,but I myself immediately thought that these callous bastards killed them in cold blood , these monsters are so out of touch with true HUMAN feelings & morals and have been ever since they were not elected,kyoto, twin towers,opium fields in Afganistan from 70tons,est. to over 3000 tons in the space of a year how much would that be worth on the street? oh yeah now I see how the Taliban had to go ! huge huge huge increases in the defence budget to fight who because I see no one but the american amBUSH goverment,what would they gain by going into Iraq? come on AMERICA & the WORLD especially the main stream media, this PLANET is not for the faceless cowards it is for my child & yours. ps. there always will be hope, regards Radar in Scotland

Posted by Highland Radar @ 10/26/2002 03:36 PM EST

The recent untimely death of the late Sen. Paul Wellstone hit close to home both emotionally and literally. He was the voice of the little man in the senate, the "little giant." Vote with your conscience and on issues, not on party lines! A republican vote is a vote for war, sending thousands of innocent American soldiers that have been brainwashed by their government owners just as much as the majority of U.S. citizens have by the media, to their premature grave. A person should not label themselves as a Democrat or Republican, each person has their own points of view and should vote best on the candidates that individually support those views.

Saddam poses no threat to the U.S. as he stands, but I guarantee when we pre-emptively strike him, we will see more terror on America's soil, and rightfully so. Looks like we have a repeat Vietnam on our hands. We know this is all about oil, greed, power and money. It's obvious why Bush wants a war and to take over Iraq's oil fields being he has investments and special interest in oil companies and defense contractors. What does he have to lose, when on his word, he can send our troops to die and his wallet will only get fatter???

We should have no interest in foreign affairs until we can handle our own domestic problems such as stabilizing social security and medicare, and reforming education, healthcare, and welfare. Ever since the Bush administration has stepped into office, shit has hit the fan and fuckin' splattered everywhere, from the economy going to shit, voting scandals, and corporate fuckups that are in the interest of them anyhow. All that's happened to the citizens of America is the shedding of the very rights of freedom we've all cherished and been proud of up until that point, now the so called "War for Freedom" is anything but the less and more so should be called the "War for Oil" and the "war to Establish Fear and Shed Rights."

Seems funny how they had said that there was a cockpit voice recorder on Wellstone's plane and now all of a sudden there was no CVR on the plane. The NTSB spokeswoman just seems like a bitch as she is, and can't answer a heated question straight. This plane was made for the weather it was flying in, and it had made contact for a successful landing just 2 minutes in advance, which would have put the plane at a steady descent, if anything were to happen mechanically, the plane would have been able to glide to it's touchdown with the experience of the pilots, on the other hand it had veered of course and made a sharp angle to the crash site which meant it dropped out of the sky like a rock, which would be consistent with a plane being shot down or forced down. Or as simple as disconnecting the plane's de-icing equipment. Not unlike the John F. Kennedy Jr and Missouri Gov. Mel Carnahan crashes, both of which involved planes already descending towards landing that suddenly wandered off the approach path and crashed. In all three cases, radio contact appears to have been cut off while the planes were still in the air, indicating total electrical failures on board coincident with the event that drove them off course. Local corporate media in Minnesota "reported that at the time of the crash, visibilty was 3 to 4 miles, the ceiling was 200 to 400 feet, and the temperature was 34 degrees. The weatherman on this station then plainly said that iceing only occurs when the temperature is between 28 and 31 degrees."

Also seems funny that, Raytheon, the company that built the plane, is based out of Texas, and also the same company that manufactures tomahawk cruise missiles. It would obviously be in the company's interest if America were to go to war, and Sen. Wellstone was one of the few prominent senators to cast a vote of "NO" for war. Let there be no doubt as to the identity of George W. Bush’s least favorite Democratic U.S. senator. It was Wellstone, the rabble-rousing liberal Progressive who represented not just Minnesota but what remains of the fighting populist spirit of the Upper Midwest. But the Bush camp has been focusing highest-level attention on "Plan Wellstone" — its project to silence progressive opposition. The Bush and his administration despised Wellstone, who unlike most Senate Democrats had been fighting spirited battles against the new administration’s policies on everything from the environment to the tax cuts for the rich to military aid for the "Plan Colombia" drug war. Wellstone was also adamantly against the invasion of Iraq, wanted private investigations into WTC disaster, and pointed out prior knowledge of 9-11. He was also against Homeland Security, and the Patriot Act. Is this a warning to other senators, not to go against Bush and to vote for anything that is put in front of them i.e. the Patriot Act? Sen. Wellstone fought to bolster Americans' privacy rights and limit government surveillance of the Internet.

"If Bush had died in a plane crash, would there not be immediate open speculation about the possibility of assassination? Wellstone held the balance in the Senate for the Democrats; he was as opposed to Bush policies as any Senator could be, in issues of war, health policy, and labor issues. His death has great political and social significance." So far, corporate media has not raised the possibility of assassination and is pointing to bad weather conditions as the cause of the crash. There is much doubt about this story, though.

Sherlock Holmes solved at least one case by noticing that something that should be present was missing. In the Hound of the Baskervilles, he solved the case by noticing that no one reported a barking dog. So what's missing in terms of the Wellstone plane crash? For the last 14 months, anytime there has been a plane crash, the media go way overboard in assuming that this must somehow be a terrorist incident. The initial reaction of the media in the first hours of the event is always now "oh my, I hope this isn't happening again. I hope this isn't another terrorist attack." Just a few days ago, there was a news story that Al-Queda may be targeting US Senators. The story referred to the possibilities of sniper attacks on golf courses. Just a few days later, a US Senator dies. So, what's missing? Sen. Wellstone's plane crashes, and there is absolutely no speculation that this is a terrorist attack. Somehow the media immediately knows that this plane crash was caused by bad weather, and this is in no way a terrorist attack. The media dog has been barking "terrorist" steadily for 14 months. Today the dog didn't bark.

This is it, folks, war has been declared on us by those among us who seek to give absolute power to a fascist regime that wants to plunge us and the world into an eternal war to fuel their own lust for wealth and power. If America allows this murder to go unaddressed, uninvestigated by an unbiased, thorough investigators in a search for facts open at every turn to the public, then our nation is doomed. The Nazis are here to stay. Who then, will be next?

The executive branch has already slyly given itself more power over the other branches, and the republicans already have control over both the executive and judicial branches. If the republicans shift the seats their way in congress, then, they too will have control of the legislative branch, and our rights will be even more shed and tyrant Bush won't have to doubt anything he wants to pass. Ever since he corruptly put himself in office in 2000, whom the populist didn't favor, everything in this country has gone downhill. Prior to the 2000 election I was proud to be an American, now at times I am ashamed. The government is supposed to be representative of the people, but it'sn not in the least bit. Some fuckin' Arlington, VA. based company that supports republicans was going to fund an anti-Wellstone campaign in the weeks prior to the election. This is an election for the "Representative" of the Minnesota people...not a fuckin' outstate company.

The Democrats held control of the Senate by 1 seat, with the loss of Wellstone, it makes it even more convenient for the crooks to get their way, giving them more power.
This election is as important as any other. Let's make these fucking crooks sorry for what they are worth. They can fuckin' try all they fuckin' want to put that fuckin' circus clown "who can juggle"--if you've seen his sorry ass commericials--lmfao...Norm "FAG"man into office. But lets make our VOICES be heard and not give into the bullshit they have handed us. Unless you are rich or support terrorism and the possibility of launching World War III, and if you like to have your rights shed...vote republican, but if you like your rights and don't want to obliterated in a nuclear war, keep the votes away from them. I'm not saying to vote Democrat, but they have the best chance of keeping a crook out of office. Indepenent is the way to, not necessarily as the party, but as an indepentent voice, don't vote on party lines!

Lets carry on the voice of the belated Sen. Paul Wellstone, who was without question the greatest voice in favor of we the people, so lets continue to make our voice heard in the echo of his.

In memory and honor of the late Sen. Paul Wellstone, 1944-2002
~Live on Fighter, may your voice forever be heard in the name of the fight for the people, and continue your fight from the heavens above~

Posted by synapse @ 10/26/2002 03:53 PM EST

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!! HOW MUCH MORE WILL IT TAKE FOR THIS COUNTRY TO REALIZE THAT THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION WILL STOP AT NOTHING TO CONTROL US AND THE WORLD! EVERY ONE PLEASE WRITE,CALL OR E-MAIL YOUR CONGRESSPERSON AND SENATORS. DEMANDAN INVESTIGATION INTO THIS APPARENT ASSSINATION. WE THOUGHT NIXON WAS BAD. WHAT HE DID IS NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT BUSH AND CHENEY ARE DOING TO THIS COUNTRY! WAKE UP AMERICA! DEMAND ACTION NOW! IMPEACH THESE BASTARDS! SAVE OUR COUNTRY!!!

Posted by James Tomkin @ 10/26/2002 05:50 PM EST

VOXNYC will be bringing you a series of pointers on successfully navigating the oceans of bullshit and lies that comprise the New World Order.

"I'm an American tired of American lies."

Try these for a little truth.

http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/wtc-demolition.htm The World Trade Center Demolition. 740 KB
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_ch1.htm Chapters One of the FEMA WTC collapse report (with comment). 850 KB
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_ch2.htm Chapters Two of the FEMA WTC collapse report (with comment). 1.9 MB
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/WhatHitThePentagon The Pentagon Crash Hoax. 1.4 MB
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/STF/stranger-than-fiction.htm Stranger Than Fiction. 600 KB
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7big.rm Video of the demolition of WTC7.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/7collapse.avi Another video of the demolition of WTC7.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif Small animated-gif of the demolition of WTC7.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc-7_1_.gif Large version of the animated-gif. Large 3.3 MB file.
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/Schmid/WhoBlewUpWTC.html Who Blew Up the World Trade Center.
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/Schmid/CloudsOfConcrete_2.html What Identifies A Demolition?
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/Schmid/index.html Full listing of Eric Hufschmid's early web articles.
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/arabs-not-to-blame.htm Arabs Not To Blame For 9-11.
http://nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/ang-mission.htm The Treasonous Air National Guard's Mission And Vision Statements.
http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wtc.html The World Trade Center Demolition from serendipity.magnet.ch
http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wot/mslp_ii.htm McMichael's Analysis Of The World Trade Center Demolition.
http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wot/insurers.htm The World Trade Center Demolition As An Insurance Scam?
http://www.mujahideen.fsnet.co.uk/wtc/wtc-hijackers.htm Many Hijackers Still Alive.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1559000/1559151.stm Hijackers Still Alive From the BBC.
http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian Full list of articles from www.nerdcities.com/guardian

Posted by Doug Smith @ 10/26/2002 05:52 PM EST

[The following are excerpts from an article in the May 27, 2002 edition of The Nation magazine. The full article can be found on the web at http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020527&s=nichols ] Paul Wellstone, Fighter
by JOHN NICHOLS
[from the May 27, 2002 issue]
Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."
That has made it political and personal for Wellstone. The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda wears the target with pride. At a moment when most Democrats are still trying to figure out how to challenge a popular President, the former college wrestler is leaping into the ring. Wellstone is not running for cover; he is running to deliver a message about politics in a state and a nation that he believes to be far more progressive than the readers of political tea leaves in Washington could begin to imagine.
...
"Paul's a controversial guy. He's the little guy who takes on the big guys. That is not something the political process is designed to reward these days. If you take strong stands you put yourself at risk--and Paul takes more strong stands on more issues than just about anyone else."
...
The man who began burning bridges [in 1990] with the Bush family when he challenged then-President Bush's Persian Gulf War preparations on their first meeting ("Who is this chickenshit?" Bush Sr. asked) may be the Senate's boldest foe of the Star Wars national missile defense program and of increased military aid to Colombia.
...
Congressional Quarterly says no senator had a more consistent record of voting against Bush Administration proposals during the new President's first year. Wellstone racks up 100 percent ratings from the AFL-CIO, Americans for Democratic Action and the League of Conservation Voters. He is the veteran grassroots organizer hailed by consumer activists for waging a three-year battle to temper the draconian "bankruptcy reform" bill pushed by the credit card industry. He is the former college professor who has been the chief Senate voice of those who maintain that education-reform initiatives must involve better measures of success than standardized tests. He is the crusader for disability rights and healthcare reform who--since he was diagnosed in February as having a mild form of multiple sclerosis--is in demand not merely as an advocate but as a very human example of what the struggles are about. The Minneapolis Star Tribune recently described him as "the go-to guy to advance the causes of educators, environmentalists, consumer and labor groups, the elderly and the poor."
...
Now, Rove is gambling presidential prestige and Republican dollars on the prospect that the upper Midwest is the key to taking back a Senate that went Democratic last spring after Vermont Senator Jim Jeffords exited the GOP. "Midwestern voters don't feel the connection with the Democrats that they once did," crows Rove. To that end, Wellstone, South Dakota's Tim Johnson and Iowa's Tom Harkin, all up for re-election, are getting what GOP insiders call "the Rove treatment": recruitment of high-profile Republican challengers, major-league fundraising assistance and regular presidential visits. All other things being equal, picking off either Johnson or Harkin would be enough to split the Senate 50-50 and again allow Vice President Cheney to break partisan ties. But beating Wellstone would be the sweetest win. "They have made it very clear that if they could beat one Democrat this year, it would be Paul Wellstone," says Minnesota political consultant Richman. "Paul gets under their skin."
"When I first met the President, he called me 'Pablo,'" Wellstone jokes. "That lasted a day or two. Then they started trying to figure out how they were going to get rid of me."
**

Posted by L.G. @ 10/26/2002 06:51 PM EST

I am still numb. Yesterday when someone came up to me and reported "what happened" I knew that instant it was no accident. My stomach dropped. I was no big fan of Wellstone, as I felt he compromised too much for mainstream politics. Regardless, he did have the courage and conviction to speak out on certain key issues, and this, my friends, got him assasinated. Are people going to sit idly by like sheep, like digusting passive slaves, or demand some justice? It astounds me to witness the apathy, the cluelessness, and the sheer indifference of the masses. And what do we have when the few who SEE the truth are too weak to do anything about it? We need to MOBILIZE, to VOICE THE TRUTH, to REFUSE to allow Coleman to get into office. This is the very least we can do to achieve some kind of remote justice for Wellstone. This ordeal is so, so terrible. I am torn between rage and the deepest sorrow. I look at the photos of this guy and his wife and daughter...he was so impassioned, so sincere, so full of conviction. It is a matter of time before the operators of sites such as www.voxnyc.com, www.fromthewilderness.com etc are next. I am getting the hell out of this country...I have seen enough.

Posted by Phillip Gebser @ 10/26/2002 09:33 PM EST

I been thinking about a possible pattern seen in the recent suspicious airplane 'accidents'.

A comment above from 'synapse' above reads: "both [JFK Jr's and Gov. Carnahan's accidents] involved planes already descending towards landing that suddenly wandered off the approach path and crashed. In all three cases, radio contact appears to have been cut off while the planes were still in the air, indicating total electrical failures on board coincident with the event that drove them off course."

Here's an idea. The perfect way to sabotage a landing airplane would be to use a focused electro-magnetic pulse (EMP) device. These machines are already being manufactured and marketed to law enforcement for the purpose of stopping fleeing vehicles.

http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/sl298.txt

A person a few miles upwind from the runway could bombard the aircraft with an intense electromagnetic pulse which would cause total electrical failure, instantly knocking out radio communication, disrupting normal engine ignition, and causing loss of steering control. The steering control surfaces on this airplane are controled by individual electrical actuators that are mechanically linked to the rudder, ailerons, and flaps.

This type of sabotage would leave no physical evidence on the aircraft, although it's possible that people at the airport or in the general vicintiy might have noticed electrical anomalies like radio noises, a crashed computer, telephone disruption, and the like. There might even be an eyewitness who noticed that the aircraft's engines went silent or saw the plane careen off course.

Posted by Mr Bill @ 10/27/2002 01:21 AM EST

have you seen this?

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm (it's in English)
(awesome info that makes you think a bit)

see if you can really find the plane

Posted by Goose @ 10/27/2002 02:44 AM EST

I do concur with synapse's analysis of the media coverage. I find it very peculiar that the media won't even mention the possibility that foul play could be responsible. All the focus seems to be on the weather however the weather doesn't appear to be as bad as the media makes it out to be. On the TwinCities.com website, an article qoutes a Traci Chacich, the airport office manager, that "two smaller Beech Queen Airs landed at the same airport two hours earlier without incident. 'It was a bit foggy, but nothing to speak of,', she said."
Heres the link
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/4371837.htm

In the same article it is said that the King Air A100s have a relatively good safetly record with only 2 fatal crashes in the last 6 years. "Both involved experienced pilots who crashed while trying to make Instrument Landing System (ILS) approaches in heavy fog. The NTSB ruled that the probable cause of the accidents were due to pilot's failure to follow Instrument Flight Rule procedures and maintain the minimum descent altitude when landing."

Sen. Wellstone's main pilot was a professional pilot with lots of experience flying Wellstone around.
Could it be that he misjudged the landing descent altitude because of heavy fog and lost control of the plane? Could it be that they were rushed to land because they had taken off late from the Twin Cities, after sitting in the airplane for 25 minutes before takeoff? It could well be that Sen.Wellstone was rushed however he hated flying and I am sure he wouldn't tell the pilot to rush his landing. If the airport manager indicated that 2 planes, including a UPS plane, had already landed 2 hours earlier that morning
and that the fog wasn't much too speak of, then I guess we will keep on guessing what happened.

Another strange piece in the story so far is the apparent unnamed witness that lived nearby who saw the plane travel over his house at 100 feet and observed "it jerking or 'crabbing to the right.' Who is this witness and what is his name? Why does the media quote a witness to the death of a US Senator and not state his name?
This witness also states he felt the impact of the crash and then heard a "loud shot." What was this shot? Has anyone seen this witness on TV or catch his name in another news article?
Here is the link to that story on StarTribune
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/3391129.html

From the same article, Carol Carmody of NTSB states the following, " The plane was 90 degrees off a routine approach to the westbound runway...Further, its angel of descent was 'steeper than the normal approach'. ...She said investigators flew over the crash site in a helicopter Saturday to outline the scene. While in the air, she said, investigators saw TREETOPS SHEARED AT SHARP ANGLES, revealing the plane's path as it plunged into wooded, marshy terrain... Carmody said the damage to the trees began 150 feet from the spot where the plane was found."----My question is what does this mean? How can they tell how steep an angle a plain crashed at by the angles of shearing of treetops and the path of the crash in a flat, wooded area? I am trying to imagine how different crashes would do different things to trees but I don't see how the crash was steep its path was 150 feet and treetops were sheared along the way. A plane the falls straight out of the sky would have a small crash area and thus a very steep descent. I just don't understand what she is trying to say. To me it seems like the pilots were already flying low and went into a long crash landing.

If I find any other oddities I'll post.

Posted by jab @ 10/27/2002 02:58 AM EST

I do concur with synapse's analysis of the media coverage. I find it very peculiar that the media won't even mention the possibility that foul play could be responsible. All the focus seems to be on the weather however the weather doesn't appear to be as bad as the media makes it out to be. On the TwinCities.com website, an article qoutes a Traci Chacich, the airport office manager, that "two smaller Beech Queen Airs landed at the same airport two hours earlier without incident. 'It was a bit foggy, but nothing to speak of,', she said."
Heres the link
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/4371837.htm

In the same article it is said that the King Air A100s have a relatively good safetly record with only 2 fatal crashes in the last 6 years. "Both involved experienced pilots who crashed while trying to make Instrument Landing System (ILS) approaches in heavy fog. The NTSB ruled that the probable cause of the accidents were due to pilot's failure to follow Instrument Flight Rule procedures and maintain the minimum descent altitude when landing."

Sen. Wellstone's main pilot was a professional pilot with lots of experience flying Wellstone around.
Could it be that he misjudged the landing descent altitude because of heavy fog and lost control of the plane? Could it be that they were rushed to land because they had taken off late from the Twin Cities, after sitting in the airplane for 25 minutes before takeoff? It could well be that Sen.Wellstone was rushed however he hated flying and I am sure he wouldn't tell the pilot to rush his landing. If the airport manager indicated that 2 planes, including a UPS plane, had already landed 2 hours earlier that morning
and that the fog wasn't much too speak of, then I guess we will keep on guessing what happened.

Another strange piece in the story so far is the apparent unnamed witness that lived nearby who saw the plane travel over his house at 100 feet and observed "it jerking or 'crabbing to the right.' Who is this witness and what is his name? Why does the media quote a witness to the death of a US Senator and not state his name?
This witness also states he felt the impact of the crash and then heard a "loud shot." What was this shot? Has anyone seen this witness on TV or catch his name in another news article?
Here is the link to that story on StarTribune
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/3391129.html

From the same article, Carol Carmody of NTSB states the following, " The plane was 90 degrees off a routine approach to the westbound runway...Further, its angel of descent was 'steeper than the normal approach'. ...She said investigators flew over the crash site in a helicopter Saturday to outline the scene. While in the air, she said, investigators saw TREETOPS SHEARED AT SHARP ANGLES, revealing the plane's path as it plunged into wooded, marshy terrain... Carmody said the damage to the trees began 150 feet from the spot where the plane was found."----My question is what does this mean? How can they tell how steep an angle a plain crashed at by the angles of shearing of treetops and the path of the crash in a flat, wooded area? I am trying to imagine how different crashes would do different things to trees but I don't see how the crash was steep its path was 150 feet and treetops were sheared along the way. A plane the falls straight out of the sky would have a small crash area and thus a very steep descent. I just don't understand what she is trying to say. To me it seems like the pilots were already flying low and went into a long crash landing.

If I find any other oddities I'll post.

Posted by jab @ 10/27/2002 02:58 AM EST

INVESTIGATORS: Plane, far off course, crashed perpendicular to runway
BY KERMIT PATTISON, TODD NELSON and PHILLIP PIÑA
Pioneer Press

EVELETH, Minn. — In the final moments before the crash that killed U.S. Sen. Paul Wellstone and seven others, the small plane was flying an unusually steep descent and dramatically off course from the runway, a top investigator said Saturday.

The Beechcraft King Air A100 somehow had turned away from the airport despite a radio message indicating it was on final approach. Carol Carmody, acting chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board, said the plane appeared to have been flying on a course roughly perpendicular to the runway at the point of impact.

"The aircraft was not aligned with the runway center," said Carmody. "It appears to be headed south and it was about 90 degrees off what would be a routine approach. We don't know why this is. We will try to find out."

On the first day of the investigation, officials revealed that Wellstone's plane contained no cockpit voice recorder that might offer clues about why it mysteriously plunged into a wooded, swampy area 2½ miles southeast of the Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport on Friday morning.

But they did recover other evidence, including both the plane's engines, which will be examined for possible clues. They also found damaged propellers, indicating they were turning when the plane hit the ground — though that does not necessarily mean they did not malfunction.

Carmody said she had consulted with the FBI and there was no intelligence information and no evidence in the wreckage that suggested any possibility of terrorism.

Investigators likely will spend three to five more days at the site gathering evidence before returning to Washington to continue their analysis. Carmody said the NTSB may take months to make a final determination about the cause of the crash.

The plane apparently had been descending sharply when it sheared off the tops of trees and crashed in a bog. Carmody said strike damage to trees began about 150 feet from the crash site and showed an unusually precipitous downward angle.

"The angle was steeper than what would be expected in normal, standardized, stabilized approach," she said.

The crash killed Wellstone, 58, as the Democrat sought a third term in the Senate in a hotly contested race against Republican Norm Coleman. Also killed were the senator's wife, Sheila, 58; their daughter, Marcia Wellstone Markuson, 33; campaign aides Will McLaughlin, 23, Tom Lapic, 49, and Mary McEvoy, 49; and pilots Richard Conry, 55, and Michael Guess, 30.

One witness told investigators that the plane sounded unusually loud as it flew low over his house moments before the crash.

"It was so close the windows were shaking," said Rodney Allen, possibly the last person to see the plane before the crash.

Carmody said Allen told investigators he was accustomed to planes flying overhead. He said he looked out the window and saw the westbound plane pass about 100 feet over his house, about five miles southeast of the airport. He said it had been "crabbing to the right," or slipping to the side, as it moved forward in the manner of a crab, Carmody said.

"He went back to watching television and within a minute, less than a minute, he felt an impact and heard what he called a loud shot," said Carmody. "He thought it might have been a rifle or something. He didn't know what it was. He figured out later that it probably was connected with the crash," about two miles west of his house.

The NTSB had hoped to find a voice recorder in the wreckage. But on Saturday investigators learned the plane did not carry one and was not required to under Federal Aviation Administration regulations, said Carmody.

"We don't know what might have been on it," she said. "Of course we would have liked to have had it, absolutely."

Carmody said it was too soon to determine whether aircraft icing had contributed to the crash. Investigators are reviewing weather data and looking for valves and cockpit switches that might indicate whether the pilots had tried to deice the aircraft while in flight.

In addition to crash scene evidence, investigators routinely examine atmospheric conditions, maintenance records and the records of the pilots. An investigator Saturday traveled to the regional FAA center to obtain radar tapes and talk to controllers.

NTSB investigators refused to draw any conclusions from the physical evidence. But one experienced aviator from the area said the evidence suggested that something happened that caused the pilots to lose control of the plane.

"They were no longer in control of the aircraft," said Don Sipola, a former president of the Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport Commission, who has 25 years of experience flying at the airport. "That will be the $64 question—what occurred in the last few minutes that distracted them or caused them to wrestle control of the aircraft."

"Something caused them at low altitude to veer off course," Sipola said.

The angle of descent also indicates an out-of-control flight, Sipola said. The normal approach for the aircraft is a descent of 3 degrees, he said. But Sipola said NTSB investigators told him Saturday that the plane was descending at 30 degrees.

"This was a real steep bank, not a nice, gentle don't-spill-the-coffee descent," Sipola said. "This is more like the space shuttle coming down. This was not a controlled flight into the ground."

The chartered campaign plane took off Friday morning from St. Paul Downtown Airport and headed for the Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport. Wellstone was en route to the 11 a.m. funeral in Virginia of Martin Rukavina, father of state Rep. Tom Rukavina, DFL-Virginia.

Shortly after 10 a.m., the crew radioed the Eveleth airport and announced that they were approaching from the east and preparing to land on westbound Runway 27. The pilot then clicked his microphone button to automatically turn on the landing lights at the airport, which does not have a control tower.

At the time of the crash, the cloud ceiling at the airport was 700 feet. The visibility was reported at 2½ miles, well above the one-mile minimum for a standard instrument landing. A light fog blanketed the area and a few snowflakes drifted to the ground. Winds were light.

Allen, the eyewitness, said the area is surrounded by swamps so the moisture does tend to created more fog. The unemployed millwright said it appeared the plane was just coming out of the clouds at about 100 feet when it was above his home. With the plane so low "it appeared to me maybe they thought they were landing," Allen said.

A 16-person team of investigators from the NTSB began picking through the site around daybreak Saturday and continued working through a cold, overcast day.

Crews rode all-terrain vehicles to the site, about half a mile from the nearest road, and had to vary their routes to avoid becoming mired in the swamp with up to 2 feet of water. They later brought in logging machinery to build a makeshift road to the site.

"It's a tough trip," said Carmody. "It makes getting equipment, people and things out there difficult. We all walked out with a shovel apiece because we had to help get gear out there."

Officials said the wreckage was scattered over a relatively small impact area with most of the debris confined to an elevated patch roughly 300 by 190 feet on mostly dry ground. The post-crash fire consumed the cockpit and fuselage and the only recognizable parts remaining were the tail and part of the wings.

"It looks like a tremendous fire pit," said Kevin Smith, a spokesman for the Minnesota Department of Public Safety.

Medical examiners removed the remains of the victims Saturday afternoon and expect to complete post-mortem investigation today, officials said.

One of Wellstone's two sons visited the crash site Friday night, Carmody said. The NTSB will arrange visits for other family members who want them, possibly today.

"We've found through the sad experience we've had with accidents over the years that family members do like to go and see where their loved ones died," Carmody said. "It gives them a sort of closure, it gives them a degree of peace. It's a difficult thing to do. But most of them find it useful and most of them want to go. For those who want to go we make it possible. We always do it as soon as we reasonably can."

Posted by anonymous @ 10/27/2002 05:08 AM EST

Excellent article! You closely describe my sentiments. I named your article the Fight the Right site of the day on my site at http://www.geocities.com/jacksonthor - I'm glad someone emailed me your link.
My article on Wellstone is at http://www.americaheldhostile.com/ed102502.shtml
May we continue to have the courage to seek the truth,
jackson

Posted by Jackson Thoreau @ 10/27/2002 06:37 AM EST

"WHO is THIS CHICKENSHHIT?" BUSH sr. on WELLSTONE

You are either WITH US or youre WELLSTONED.

http://www.rumormillnews.net/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=24943

Paul Wellstone grew up in Virginia and attended the University of North Carolina where he was a champion wrestler. He taught policial science at Carleton College in Northfield, MN, before being elected to the senate in 1990 in a grassroots campaign, defeating the Republican incumbant Rudy Boschwitz, who had a campaign war chest of $7 million (large for that time). He was seen as the most liberal person to be eleted to the Senate since the 60s. During his first term he advocated for a single payer Universal Health Care system long after the Democratic party had abandoned advocating even a complicated managed care system. His pressing questions once led a clueless Geroge Bush Sr. to remark "Who is this chickenshhit?"

Link Below at the END.

Everything Bush.

NO MAYDAY CALL.

No black box!

Fishy to say the least.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/

Wed like an INDEPENDENT investigation to this HIGHY fishy plane crash of the Wellstone family and staff.If there indeed was foul play good gog does that means that they killed them all on board that plane/

Who's next? Or was that THE message from Hard Disc Cheney? "You DO NOT mess with the PRESIDENT when he is in a WAR"Paul Welstones plane crash of his family staff and two pilots was in effect a sign from our neozionist hawkishadministration that they will not let ANYONE get in their way.

You are either WITH US or youre WELLSTONED.

http://politicalgraveyard.com/death/aircraft.html

List of Politicians who died in Crashes.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20021025_1469.html

A W arning.

They shoot senators dont they?

They shoot presidents AND their kid brothers who get in "their" way too.

Heaven help us all.

As far as we're concerned this is really badass SCARY #####.

We have families too and want to live in peace not rest in it like Wellstone.

Poor Paul.

A HERO.

But a dead hero.

He will go down in history as one of the FEW SANE MEN in our government who opposed the BUSHAWKS and died for it.May he rest in peace. Poor poor Paul.

Who's next Cynthia McKinney?

David Letterman? Noam Chomsky? Phil Donahue?

You?

Us?

The Wellstone "Crash" was a Warning to us all.

To those of you with families please take heed.

We feel like we've said our peace.

What difference will it make anyway to be against the war?So we know.So you know.So everyone knows.So what?Its happening weather we like it or not.

A big difference will be if you get killed a la Wellstone.He was a high profile target who was working for the little guy ,how bout the little guys he was working for?No one would even know if anyone of us little guys died prematurely in some accident or suicide.Hell they wont even know we died.Wont even make the papers.THis Wellstone warning has us pretty shook up and are seriously reconsidering our anti bush anti war anti zionist stance.Heros R not us.Call us what you like.We have families too.

sincerely,until further notice...

ChickenDoves.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?lastnode_id=1378779&node_id=473751

Posted by Art Bishop @ 10/27/2002 06:46 AM EST

Hey. I'm with ya. I'm reading, thinking, posting, letting people know about your site. I've been following this type of thing for years now, and i really enjoy your site.

That said, yesterday someone posted a comment about your archives and the sudden appearance of the prediction you had...

... like I said, I'm totally with you, but the comment has been taken down..
VOX COMMENT ANNOTATION: The former site was voxfux.com which was taken down it the weeks following the 911 attacks. The site was considerably MORE intense than this new VOXNYC site which has also been in operation for quite some time but changed it's interface in june of this year. All prior articles will be archived and linked soon. There is much work to be done and each day is simply filled with horror after horror that tending to past archives is becoming like everything else, we get to it them when we have the time. I've been screaming out my warnings since the anthrax mailings proved me right.
Sadly, I've got another warning. which will appear as soon as we get over the Midterm elections.
stay tuned...
vox

Please don't censor the skeptics. There's room for them too... it encourages healthy, lively debate.

Thanks for a terrific site.

Posted by a mom @ 10/27/2002 07:29 AM EST